Roger Grimes, Leader of the Official Opposition, today ensured that proceedings of the House of Assembly remain opened to public viewing.  After the Speaker of the House made a ruling to close the public galleries for undisclosed reasons, Mr. Grimes stated that the Opposition would not take part in the daily proceedings without giving the public the opportunity to view the proceedings. 

After a brief break, the commissionaires were recalled, and the public galleries were opened.

The exchange is below.

MR. SPEAKER (Hodder): Order, please!

Today we have an announcement to make and the session will now be called to order. We will not be calling for the admission of strangers because, on the recommendation of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and also because we do not have our personnel in place, our commissionaires, the public galleries will not be open today. However, the proceedings are being recorded and they are being televised, and, of course, they will be published by way of Hansard.

The issue for the House and the Speaker is an issue of safety, and given the volatility that has been reported to me by the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary officials in that particular matter, the Speaker has taken the recommendation of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary and the senior officials and has ordered that the public galleries not be opened for this afternoon’s session.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today on a point of parliamentary privilege, first of all, and I would like to make it quite clear, I am not challenging the Speaker’s rule as to the comments that you just made but stating the position of the Official Opposition regarding the closure of the galleries today. I think it is only proper and fair that the Official Opposition of this Province have an opportunity to outline what they feel the circumstances are.

First of all, regarding the parliamentary privilege, we came here, the Official Opposition, as well as the NDP, Mr. Speaker, for the second time this week and could not gain access to this building. I raised this point of privilege a few days ago. Your Honour undertook to do an investigation of the matter and we are back here again, two days later. Without any interference from any strikers or anyone, we came to enter this building this morning to do our job, and, again, we were denied access to this building by someone inside this building.

Now, the precincts of the building, as I understand it, take in the House of Assembly and the area immediately outside of it. It does not include the vestibule outside and it does not include the entrance way to the civil servants entrance. Someone out there is in charge of security, Mr. Speaker, and on two successive days have denied the Official Opposition to come in here to do our jobs. I fail to understand why we had to call the Speaker, whom I am not even sure has control over the area in question, and ask for admission to this building. I called the Government House Leader again, when this happened this morning, and he quite rightly was upset about this as well, the fact that we had been barred.

My question, Mr. Speaker, is: What is the point of raising a point of privilege, and being given undertakings that this is never to happen again, when we come back and within forty-eight hours we run into this exact same situation again?

In addition to that, Mr. Speaker, regarding the issue of no one in the galleries here today, the people’s House, we came into this building to do our job in the people’s House without any interference whatsoever from strikers. I point out - again, I am at a loss to understand. I thought that the Speaker, the Sergeant-at-Arms and the Commissionaires run this place. The RNC may be under the control of the Minister of Justice and Attorney General but it is not my understanding that the Speaker of the people’s House takes his direction from the RNC of this Province. The government might dictate to the RNC what is or is not a reason of safety in this House, but Your Honour just stated that you are making your decision based upon advice of the RNC. My understanding is that the RNC does not control the security of this building here. That has been based upon the decisions of your staff, your Sergeant-at-Arms, and your Commissionaires.

So, again, we disagree vehemently with the Chairs decision that the seats of this House here today are vacant because someone might do something, and you have taken your advice from a body, a police force, that supposedly has nothing to do with the confines and the security of this building right here.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wish to speak to that point of parliamentary privilege, and to say that I support the comments and remarks of the Opposition House Leader. I am advised by a telephone call a few moments ago that there are approximately thirty to forty people outside the House who wish to gain entrance to participate, by observance of the proceedings, and that there is no indication from anyone that anything other than observing the matters of the House is what is desired.

When the point of privilege was raised by the Opposition House Leader the other day, I pointed out the passage from Beauchesne indicating that the RNC, or the police forces, have no role in the House of Assembly unless the Speaker invites them in, and invites them in presumably once the Speaker has determined that he cannot control order in the House or in the galleries or in the precincts of the House without the presence of the RNC. There has been no indication whatsoever, other than the RNC or someone in the RNC saying it might be safer if we did not have anyone in the galleries. Well, it might always be safer, Mr. Speaker, if we did not have anyone in the galleries, if we did not have freedom of assembly, if we did not have freedom of speech, if we did not have all of the freedoms, the freedom of collective bargaining and the right to strike, and all those freedoms and rights that we have.

Mr. Speaker, I find it, to me, contrary to the normal expectations that you, Your Honour, would rely merely on advice of that nature without rationale or reason for it. If there had been some indication of a threat or bomb threat or some other threat, or something that might be taken into account, but merely to recommend that the people’s House not be opened to the people seems to me to be an advocation of the House’s responsibility to make sure that we are in control of our own proceedings and you, as Speaker, are the defender of that liberty of Parliament that we hold so dear.

I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that you reconsider and perhaps consult with the House Leaders and recess the House so we could consider that, and consider as well - I am advised that the individuals outside, when I said, where are the Commissionaires, they said: We have no difficulty with Commissioners coming into the House. We met them on the way over. We walked over and we were told that they were told to go away for an hour.

Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to reconsider that and perhaps with a meeting of the House Leaders and myself to decide whether there is a basis, based on what specific information may have been provided by the RNC, to close the galleries of the House and to consider the availability of the Commissionaires, which is the security force of this House, under the direction of the Sergeant-at-Arms. That is very extraordinary, I would submit, for the House to be closed merely based on the recommendation of the RNC, without something more.

I would respectfully ask, Mr. Speaker, that you consider recessing the House for a few moments, meeting with the House Leaders and myself from this caucus, to consider whether there is an alternative to the ruling that you have made.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Opposition House Leader contacted me, and I immediately contacted the Speaker. I appreciate the commentary by the Opposition House Leader, saying that I was obviously upset, correctly. As I said the other day, if one member is denied access to this House then it is not only that member’s privileges that have been breached, it has been all of our privileges.

There is one thing that we are supposed to be guaranteed in this Legislature, as members, and that is the right to assemble and the right to conduct the business of the people, without threat, without intimidation, free from civil arrest, within the precincts of the Legislature. I appreciate the point. I concur with the point.

I will say this, Mr. Speaker, that the recommendation made by the Leader of the New Democratic Party, the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi, possibly some time this afternoon that himself, the Opposition House Leader and myself, as the Government House Leader, meet with you so that we can review the situation and you can advise us on what basis you made the decision.

I will say to you, Mr. Speaker, that I support your decision. I know that any decision taken like that is not made lightly. Even in 1999, under similar circumstances, the then Minister of Mines and Energy, now Leader of the Opposition - I have it there - talked about how the Speaker decides on the security and safety of the public galleries. I believe he may recall that.

To the point made by the Leader of the NDP, I think at some time this afternoon, if it is okay with you, we can meet with the Speaker and move on.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Further to the point raised by the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi and commented on by the Government House Leader, the whole point here is not for delay. The point here is to resolve the issue of: Are we, or are we not, going to allow people to come into the people’s House?

We do not wait until later this afternoon to have that chat and have that discussion. This is bigger than either one of us here. It is bigger than the Speaker. The Speaker may decide what is or is not appropriate in this House, Mr. Speaker, and we all respect that, but this issue of, can the people come to the people’s House, is bigger than all of us. That is the essence of democracy. That is being denied here and it cannot be done frivolously. It must be done with full thought and regard by all parties concerned, and anyone who can help shed any valued opinion upon that decision.

To proceed and decide some time later in the afternoon whether people can or cannot come into their House is kind of a frivolous exercise. The whole issue is, if they are allowed in, they ought to be allowed in from minute one - not two hours down the road. That is the whole point.

I agree wholeheartedly with the Government House Leader’s comments that there should be a recess, but not later; we should do it now. The Government House Leader, myself as Opposition House Leader, the Leader of the NDP, and yourself, should meet to converse about this idea and decide if there is any way possible to have the people in the people’s galleries.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I understand that under the circumstances there wasn’t a full opportunity for Your Honour to consult with the House Leaders. I know you were able to advise what you had planned to do, but there was no opportunity to consult and have the discussion based on the reason. It is, in fact, my recommendation that we meet immediately, so that we can see if there is a way to ensure that democracy may be served within the needs of security. We would like to have an opportunity to do that, to meet with you, before such a decision might be implemented.

I will say, too, that when I was speaking to the issue of the rule of parliamentary privilege, it was again clear that when we, after notifying your office that the members of the House were approaching the door, when we got to the door there was nobody there. The doors were locked. Several people, members of the House, knocked on the doors. Nobody answered. It required further calls to your office to get someone to come to the door to even let members of the House in. Clearly, whatever system was hoped to be put in place was not working. That can be the source, obviously, of some discussion at a later time, maybe later on this afternoon.

The issue of the opening of the galleries to the public, when there are thirty or forty people outside waiting to get in without, apparently, any intentions that are certainly known to me - if the RNC or Your Honour know some things that we don’t know, then perhaps it would be appropriate that the Government House Leader, the Opposition House Leader and myself meet with you to discuss these matters.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: One final point, Mr. Speaker.

I have faith in the reasons why you made the decision. The Opposition were not the only members today who had extreme difficulty getting into this House, and I want to make that very clear, extreme difficulty over the last two days. I think we all have to recognize that, for obvious reasons, the environment we are operating in has caused some situations.

I am certainly not going to challenge the Speaker’s ruling. You have made a decision and we support that decision. When you want to get together with the House Leaders, I believe that is important, but that is up to you, Sir, in your capacity as Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Given the extraordinary circumstances that we are operating under - there is a parliamentary theme that the Speaker’s rulings should not be questioned, but given the circumstances of this day, there are other factors that the Speaker has knowledge of. Therefore, if it is the will of the House, the Speaker has no objection to recessing the House for five minutes or so, so I can share some other information with the House Leaders.

I would ask that the House now recess for fives minutes, and ask the House Leaders to meet me in my Chambers.

Recess

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair has consulted with the hon. House Leaders for the government, the official Opposition and for the New Democratic Party. The Chair recognizes that it is ultimately the decision of the Speaker and, having reviewed the matter with the Clerk of the House and the Sergeant-at-Arms, and also having reviewed all of the factors, including the fact that we do not have Commissionaires in the building - they have been denied access - the Chair’s ruling, on the fact that the galleries remain closed today, stands. However, in saying so, this should not be taken by any member, or members of the general public, to mean that on another day, when circumstances are different - and the Chair has undertaken that we will consult with the union leadership to see if we can make some arrangements to have access to the building by Officers of the House and the Legislature, members themselves, and do that over the next several days or hours - the decision this afternoon to leave the galleries closed must not be taken by any member, or any member of the public, to mean that this would be the condition that would prevail.

The Chair is very cognizant of freedom of speech, very cognizant that the public business should be done in the public forum, and that certainly is what the objective of any Speaker would be; however, given today’s circumstances, I do believe, and I firmly believe, and the Chair will continue to adhere to the principle, that the decision made today is the correct decision.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order, if I may.

With regret, I have to indicate that I believe personally, and this caucus believes personally, that the decision that you have just taken is one that is in grave error and strikes to the very heart of democracy - absolutely to the heart of democracy - and I believe members here, by their -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The member know that decisions of the Chair cannot be challenged. They can only be challenged by a substantive motion that would have to be moved and seconded and notice given for it. Therefore, the Chair rules that the Chair has made the decision.

There was an amendment passed in our Standing Order some years ago, I believe it was in 1999, that decisions of the Chair are final and they are not to be challenged in any manner at all.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, again, I am not indicating that I am challenging the Chair. I would like a few minutes in the people’s House, in a democracy, to explain why we are not going to sit here with that ruling. We will be leaving this Legislature, and I would like to explain to Your Honour, as the Speaker, to the members opposite, and to the people of the Province, why we see this as the biggest breach of democracy in the history of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Mr. Speaker, I request the consent of the House to speak for a minute to that issue, because it is that serious, Mr. Speaker, and I take it that I have consent and agreement to speak to that issue?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition has every opportunity to speak and tell people why, wherever, but I am not going to give consent to challenge the Speaker’s ruling. That is the fact of it.

MR. GRIMES: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The member, rising on a point of privilege.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. GRIMES: A point of privilege, Mr. Speaker.

I think we have seen here today, and again with the action of the Government House Leader, an absolute denial of democracy in the Province. You committed, Mr. Speaker, to have an investigation done as to why the doors were locked forty-eight hours ago, and committed that it would never happen again. Today, when we were at the doors, with no obstruction whatsoever, indicating that we wanted no police protection, did not need any, did not want any, did not desire any, were not going to accept any, the doors being locked, we called the security, got an officer of the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary, who says: I have an order and a command to not open the doors. The question was: Would you mind telling us who gave the order? He said: I will have to get back to you; I cannot disclose that information.

Now, Mr. Speaker, we are in here and again the right for peaceful assembly, freedom of speech, as due the public unless they do something wrong, I would suggest it is a grave error not to recess the House, call in the Commissioners, make the arrangements that you, as the Speaker, are talking about trying to make in the future. I am sure that the people of the Province and the picketers will allow the Commissioners to cross the lines. If we are not going to have the public galleries open today then we, as the Official Opposition, will not sit here.

Mr. Speaker, every bit as serious as that, it has now come to our attention that the same orders that were given to not open the doors for us, as elected members, have now been given to not allow the members of the media to enter into the gallery.

MR. E. BYRNE: Why is that?

MR. GRIMES: Why is that? The Government House Leader says: Why is that? Now we are at the very essence, Mr. Speaker, of the whole issue. We cannot have this occurring. We will not stay in this Legislature with that happening.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I think there is consent for the hon. Government House Leader to speak.

MR. E. BYRNE: I appreciate the Leader of the Opposition giving me the information - or giving me the opportunity. Again, this is new information to the government side. I concur with the Leader of the Opposition -

MR. HARRIS: As do I.

MR. E. BYRNE: One second, I say to the Leader of the NDP.

I concur with the Leader of the Opposition. I ask the Speaker to recess the House again until we can find out what the situation is with respect to the information that has been brought forward to our attention.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I agree with the Government House Leader; this House should be recessed. I would also say that we will not be in this House if the House is not open to the public, because we do not believe that the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary should run this House, or access to this House.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair can only say that -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before the Chair came to this House this afternoon, the Chair was asked a question, and the question was whether or not the doors would be open for the media. The Chair, in the presence of the Clerk and others, gave the direct order that this House is not barred today to members of the press. The Chair was asked a question, and the Chair has already communicated on that matter. When the galleries were closed to the members of the public, there was no intention on anybody’s part at all to have the galleries closed to the members of the media. The media are welcome. If they come to the door they will be admitted, and that has been communicated to them by the Clerk of the House and myself, prior to this session opening this afternoon.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, I take it that by agreement, all three parties have agreed to recess. I expect, Mr. Speaker, that you are also going to deal - not only with the media. We will not be in this Legislature this afternoon if we do not try to make arrangements to have the Commissionaires come in, open the galleries, and have a free Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We will take the recess and we will have the opportunity - we will reconvene as soon as we discover the answers that we are all looking for.

Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: By agreement, the House will recess again.

Recess

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair would like to thank the Commissionaires who, on very short notice - after being here at the building for more than an hour earlier today and were not able to gain access. I would like to thank the Commissionaires for coming in and also other House officials who were able to be here and had been here earlier today and are now present. Therefore, the House can now function in the manner that all of us would like to have occur on a regular basis.

I want to also note that when welcoming visitors to our galleries, that we want to make it quite clear that visitors, according to our Standing Orders, are not permitted to participate or demonstrate in any way, any approval or disapproval.

It is a case where - I say to the Government House Leader, that the bells have rang and the Commissionaires have - if members wish me to say the expression, admit strangers, than we shall. All visitors who are in the galleries are always, in parliamentary terms, strangers to the House, but they are visitors in every other sense.

I want to make it quite clear that we ask visitors not to participate in any manner on the proceedings in the House, and we thank you for your co-operation. The Chair, of course, wishes that this session this afternoon proceed in a very orderly and parliamentary manner.

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