Below is the exchange between Opposition Leader Roger Grimes and Premier Danny Williams.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It saddens me to have to ask questions today, a dark day, as I see it in Newfoundland and Labrador and a black mark, not only on the government, but on the whole Province as a result of their actions.

Mr. Speaker, on September 20, 2001, the current Premier addressed the NAPE convention and said - this is his quote: There is a legacy of neglect and under-investment in education, health care and social services but my determination to improve and strengthen the quality of public services is absolute.

Mr. Speaker, in light of that statement: Does the Premier understand - and will he now acknowledge - that his recent actions, including today with this draconian legislation, are, in fact, ruining the quality of public services and demonstrate that his only determination seems to be to punish anyone who would insist upon their right to negotiate and to intimidate anyone who does not agree with his government’s right-wing agenda to slash and burn?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, back in September of 2001 I had no way of knowing what kind of a fiscal mess we were going to be left in in this Province. There was no possible way of seeing that that government could do the eternal, perpetual damage that they have done to the people of our Province. What we were left with was a total fiscal and financial mess. That has been repeated time and time again by the Royal Commission, by banks throughout the Province, by the federal Minister for Natural Resources, Mr. John Efford, who said we have been left with a financial nightmare and was honourable enough to even accept some of the blame for that. Unfortunately, the hon. members opposite just washed their hands like Pontius Pilate and say they had absolutely nothing to do with it -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: - nothing to do with it whatsoever.

Mr. Speaker, I had no way of knowing when I talked to NAPE, but what I did indicate to them was that I was going to do my best to make this a better place to live. I will continue to live up to that commitment because this is all about making it a better place, from a health care perspective, from an educational perspective and from a social perspective. We cannot do that without any money. You have left us with debt that we are simply drowning in. We have to take strong measures that -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the Premier now to complete his answer.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We do not like having to do it but we have no choice because we have no money.

[Disturbance in the gallery]

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Speaker wants to make it quite clear that people who are visitors in the gallery are welcome to this Legislature. This Speaker, and other speakers before me, firmly want to communicate that visitors are always welcome in this House; however, visitors are reminded that they are not in any way to show approval or disapproval for anything that takes place on the floor of the House. I ask you sincerely for your co-operation in that regard.

Thank you very much.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It seems clear that the government’s approach is to continue to repeat false statements in the hope that by some fluke they might become true statements, just by repetition, because the circumstance he described is just not true in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The Premier, Mr. Speaker, did talk about making a commitment and keeping commitments, and I am glad he did. In the same speech, Mr. Speaker, the Premier, the then Opposition Leader, said, and this is the quote: I make this commitment to you - this is to the NAPE convention - we will not use the extraordinary powers of the Legislature, which no other employer has, to undo collective agreements that public servants have negotiated in good faith - and he said he would keep the commitments that he made.

I do not think that has anything to do with what he is trying to describe as the financial circumstance. How does that fit? How does that commitment and that statement, in his own words, that he was so proud to make then, fit with Bill 18 today, with contract stripping right in the legislation, Mr. Speaker?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, when the hon. Leader of the Opposition read out that particular paragraph, he left out a sentence. I said: I make this commitment to you... - and the sentence that he left out was - ...my government will respect the collective bargaining process. We will negotiate fair collective agreements that the Province can afford, and we will stand by those agreements.

The point that I have made time and time again here in this Legislature, Mr. Speaker, is that we cannot afford the requests that were being made by the union. On March 31, in the meeting that myself and the minister had, the position of the union was: zero, zero, six and six, on a four-year agreement. Six per cent is $132 million in year three, $132 million in year four, and a new $132 million, as well, in year four; $396 million. If we were successful in concluding an agreement with the federal government, whereby the federal government gave us 100 per cent of all of our offshore oil revenues, I would then take those revenues, when they hit a peak of $385 million -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the Premier now to finish his answer quickly.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker

- we would take another $11 million from the public Treasury, and we would hand each and every cent of that over to our public servants.

There are 500,000 people in this Province besides the public sector workers. We have to look out for them as well, and we have to look out for our children and grandchildren in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is great to see the Premier restate his real appreciation for the public employees - not servants - the public employees, who he is now trying to pit against every other Newfoundlander and Labradorian.

Mr. Speaker, the Premier also said this, and maybe he will find a way around these words as well, which were his own, same speech, same group: Governments of the early 1990s - these are the Premier’s words - did not try first to exhaust avenues of co-operation in a joint effort to resolve the financial problems the government faced. They bulldozed their way through the process and sacrificed co-operation and trust in the process.

His words, Mr. Speaker, to the NAPE convention. Is the Premier now concerned that his bulldozing through the process that is going to begin really in earnest here today and tomorrow, as he uses the power of the Legislature to get what he could never get by co-operation and negotiation, is he concerned about the impact that is going to have -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member now to complete his question.

MR. GRIMES: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

- and the sacrifice of the co-operation and trust with the public employees he values so much in the process?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I need to remind the hon. Leader of the Opposition that one of the drivers of that bulldozer was he, himself, who was in that government at that particular point in time and rolled back wages and had wage freezes. I think he forgets that, Mr. Speaker. He has a very, very short memory when it comes to that, and is very hypocritical when he can stand there and say that.

As well, what we are trying to get through, get the legislation through this Legislature, is to try and do something about the 7,325 missed appointments in the hospitals, the 2,835 missed child clinic appointment, the cardiac screening, the mammograms. That is what we are trying to straighten out.

You have a very short memory, Sir. In April, 2001-

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

This is the House of Assembly. Members have a right to ask questions, to hold the government accountable. The essence of Parliament is accountability. The essence of Question Period is that government be held accountable. We must have co-operation. When members ask questions, they should be relatively silent while the people in the Administration are attempting to give the answer.

The Premier has about twenty seconds to complete his answer.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. Leader of the Opposition, in April of 2001, Premier Roger Grimes said he would consider using legislation to get some striking workers back to their jobs if the health care system shows signs it cannot cope.

If you want to accuse me of bulldozing life safety, then I will accept that responsibility as Premier of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask members on both sides for their co-operation.

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I understand the Premier is under considerable stress, and I recognize that.

Mr. Speaker, last year the Premier supported and committed to binding arbitration for the doctors as an end to a dispute. In a month or so, there is binding arbitration slated for the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. Is binding arbitration okay for some people and not okay for other? Is it safe for anybody or does Bill 18, which is tabled here today, show the new approach from this new government and indicate that there is going to be binding arbitration for nobody, under any circumstances, because they cannot turn over control of the purse to a third party? Which is it, I ask the Premier?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to show the hypocrisy of what is asked here in the question.

Back in March, the former Premier of this Province signed a Memorandum of Understanding on the Warren report. That was dated, actually, October 29, 2001, and he said: The study should be completed by March 31, 2002, and the findings of the study group will be implemented.

He had no time frame. In January, 2003, the Warren report put forth a report, and in the following budget that Premier of the Province put forth a budget for $2.5 -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, if they want me to answer -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

It is the right of the Opposition to ask questions. It is the right of the government to either not answer at all or to decide their answer. They have every right. What the minister is doing is well within the rules. It is for him to determine, the government to determine, who answers and what the answer contains.

The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate the opportunity to answer, because to implement 1 to 8 of the Warren Report takes $5.1 million. Two months after that report, that Premier put in a budget $2.5 million for the Warren Report. This year in the Budget that I presented in this House, we put in $3.6 million -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister now to complete his answer.

MR. SULLIVAN: - $1.1 million more than he put in that report. Now he is telling us he put in the report, an acceptable report, that he gave 50 per cent funding, and we have increased that by 40 per cent. Where is the hypocrisy there, I ask the Leader of the Opposition?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that the people of the Province appreciate the clear and concise answer about whether or not binding arbitration is available to anybody. I am sure they understood the answer perfectly, from what was just said.

Mr. Speaker, let me give one more quote from the Premier to the NAPE convention. The quote is this: I believe it is important to respect the rights of unionized employees - he has his head down now, Mr. Speaker, ducking behind a piece of paper - while at the same time using the avenues available to us, under existing laws and collective agreements. The current avenue, Mr. Speaker, under existing law is binding arbitration.

Let me ask one last time: Why would the Premier not use the existing law, which he told these people, at their annual meeting, he would do if they voted for him and he became the Premier, why would he not use the existing law and go to binding arbitration and leave the existing collective agreement alone, or did we get the answer from the President of Treasury Board -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. member now to complete his question.

- that there is no binding arbitration for anybody ever again?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We are concerned about the health care in our Province and we want immediate action. I would like to make it clear to him, there is no reference, nothing in the collective agreement, right now -

MR. BARRETT: (Inaudible).

MR. SULLIVAN: I mean, the Member for Bellevue - they want an answer and they are not prepared to accept an answer.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: I will sit down if they don’t want an answer.

MR. BARRETT: You are not giving an answer. If you gave the answer, I would let you stand up.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair again asks all hon. members for their co-operation.

The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There were three issues that were outstanding. We spent four days on the previous weekend dealing with them. One was salary and the second was the Warren Report. There is no Warren Report in the current collective agreement. In spite of that, Mr. Speaker, we put 40 per cent more money to deal with janitorial, secretarial and cleaning in schools than that government put last year in the Budget; 40 per cent more in spite of not having anything in the agreement.

On sick leave, Mr. Speaker, I will make it clear, there is no concession for anybody working in the workplace today by this government to take anything away. In fact, we have added things at different stages of that process that were not there before, including making temporary employees permanent and -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister now to complete his answer.

MR. SULLIVAN: - numerous other areas that we agreed to give employees an opportunity to deduct money for car allowances, basically, so it was not a taxable item. We made numerous changes and we have not asked for one thing that current employees do not have today.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am sure again the people of the Province respect and appreciate the clarity of the answer, that there will be no binding arbitration for anybody ever with this government. I take it that is the answer. That was the question that was asked.

Mr. Speaker, let me switch to another question. Could the Premier tell us which precedence he used to draft the unbelievable piece of legislation that is here before us today as Bill 18? Did he find examples of contract stripping, which are in this legislation, grossly exaggerated fines, which are in this legislation, and the firing of supposedly valued public employees, which is in this legislation, did he find those features in other jurisdictions across Canada? Where, exactly, were the precedence, or does he have a made-in-person solution from the one-man show himself, Mr. Speaker?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Number one, there is no contract stripping. You know the person who signed the MOU said the Warren Report will be implemented with no time frame. It could be fifty years. We put 40 per cent more than you put in your Budget. We have enhanced the aspects and the principles of the Warren Report over what that former Premier did when he was in that chair that this Premier is in.

Secondly, on sick leave we have made no changes whatsoever for current employees. It is false to give the impression that we are contract stripping. We have looked - there are numerous in jurisdictions if you look at it.

Mr. Speaker, traditionally the -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SULLIVAN: Give me an opportunity.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: Currently, Mr. Speaker, and traditionally in a lot of areas we have seen an escalation in the amount of fines. Environmental have gone to $1 million. We have seen DFO violations, $1 million. They are examples of today. There is less tolerance for those things, and there is a movement to higher levels out in society today. Besides -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister now to complete his answer, quickly.

MR. SULLIVAN: Yes, I will complete.

The Leader of the Opposition has said clearly, something that is absolutely false, that contract stripping - he is doing something. In fact, he did something, signed an MOU and funded it less than 50 per cent of what he signed.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SULLIVAN: Where is his real thought behind this Warrant Report, I would like to know?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would gladly, and I am sure all the members would gladly have the President of Treasury Board, because the Premier obviously does not want to answer any more of these questions. He does not like the line of questioning anymore. He has given up on it again today. Maybe he would like to table those other jurisdictions that he scanned before they put together this draconian piece of legislation.

Mr. Speaker, the Premier, this Premier, has been given the privilege to govern Newfoundland and Labrador, not to rule or to control or to run a small island off the Coast of Florida that Americans are not allowed to go to anymore. Is the Premier really willing to fire up to 20,000 public sector workers as the legislation suggests, the valued public employees that he talks about? I ask the Premier, does he really think that the government, and he personally, could fire the skilled workers that help government function on a daily basis, or does he already have, in fact, a hit list compiled of people who dare to speak out against him?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member now to complete his question, quickly.

The hon. the Minister of Finance and President of Treasury Board.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The legislation sets down certain terms and requirements and the worker decides if they will comply with returning to work. I will use an example -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SULLIVAN: Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, under essential service agreement -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Again, I am asking members for their co-operation. The question has been asked. It is a very serious question, and the minister is attempting to give a very serious answer. I ask the minister to continue his answer.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I will use an example. Yesterday, under an essential service agreement, if someone does not report under an essential service agreement their job is gone. They are dismissed. That is there and it is accepted by both sides. Yesterday, after three hours of asking people to come, they still were not in on the job. We waited for over three hours and then we went back again because they indicated they were told not to come in and fulfill the requirements of the essential services agreement. That choice is theirs when they are asked to make it. If they do not report to a job that is there, an essential service - the law says that if you do not come to work you are dismissed in the job. That is a fair and reasonable legislation there -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister now to complete his answer.

MR. SULLIVAN: - and putting it in legislation. It is a serious piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, it is no joke. Legislation is brought in for a purpose: to protect people, to ensure that the Province gets run, and the proper work is done. That is what laws are all about in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a supplementary.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The answer, again, demonstrated better than I ever could, that the penalties in this legislation are both vindictive and punitive. It is clear that the Premier’s one-man show approach to this whole process is killing morale in our public sector and will destroy it for years to come.

Mr. Speaker, the question is this: How does the Premier feel that fines of up to $250,000 a day and the firing of our so-called valued public sector employees will help improve his already severely damaged relationship with the unions? Does the Premier really personally feel that these levels of punishment and penalty are just?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, we were elected to govern this Province. We were given a mandate from the people to run this Province on their behalf. That is exactly what we are trying to do. We cannot have a situation, as we have had over here the last couple of weeks, where we have had our managers out there on a parking lot, refused admission to come to work. This is not about 20,000 people. This is about 520,000 people and future generations. We cannot allow anarchy to prevail in our Province. This is a Legislature, this is where the laws are made. If people choose to break the law than they get fined. Foreign overfishing fines are as much as $1 million. Environmental fines are as much as $1 million. This fine would be against a union for advising its people not to come to work and that is $250,000.

What the members of this Legislature need to know, Mr. Speaker, is that part of the reason why the clause is in this legislation, for people to choose to terminate their own jobs, is because those very people have phoned us, as a government, and said: Please put that in the legislation so that we can go back to work because we want to go back to work.

There are requests that came to us from union members, asking to have that in the legislation. They actually phoned our office. That is why we are doing it. We are doing it to support them and we are doing it to keep this Province as a good place to live, for people who live here right now and for future generations. That is why we are doing it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, it is unbelievable. I am glad that the Premier does speak from time to time and answer a few questions so that we can get to have a real look at the real leadership and the new approach. They needed the managers so badly last week, they had to cross picket lines so they could sit in the galleries so others could not get in.

Mr. Speaker, it is clear that the Premier has not thought this legislation through to any degree at all. The penalties are draconian, heavy-handed, punitive and vindictive, and you will find no such penalties anywhere in any similar legislation in the free world. The Premier has ensured that the penalties, once assessed, cannot even be appealed.

I ask, again, of the Premier: If an employee happens to be sick on the day the legislation is passed, and are supposed to go back to work, are they going to be dismissed or can they get a chance to speak to somebody and explain why they did not show up? It is not in the bill.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance and the President of Treasury Board.

MR. SULLIVAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to add that the bill was given notice. It has not been introduced even in this House at the moment and there is an opportunity, I can tell him, in dealing with that bill to answer questions. We did not have an opportunity to introduce that bill in this House, other than to give notice. We did give the courtesy to the Leader of the Opposition for him to have a copy of this in advance. I only have a draft. I have not seen the final bill. I do not have it, I might add.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The time assigned for Question Period is slipping by.

A few seconds to the minister to complete his answer.

MR. SULLIVAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a copy of the bill that went to print. The bill is tabled and circulated by the House of Assembly here, and it does not help matters much when the Opposition are trying to inflame - the Leader of the Opposition, and some of his people, spent a good part of Thursday, I think, with the NAPE council, in their offices. That does not help matters, and coming back here inflaming the situation. We want a co-operative environment here. We want people to come back to work, and we are going to be, as any government would be, reasonable -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister now to complete his answer.

MR. SULLIVAN: - in wanting its employees back to work.