House of Assembly
Newfoundland and Labrador

Oral Questions
December 4, 2008

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MS JONES:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, this morning brought more news of the effects of the global economic slide, the effects of it on this Province. AbitibiBowater announced that, after 100 years of operation, the pulp and paper mill in Grand Falls-Windsor will close.

This mill is why people settled in Grand Falls-Windsor in the first place, and for the last two weeks we have stood in this House and we have been asking the Minister of Natural Resources what the status of the AbitibiBowater mill has been. We have not gotten a response on anything, other than in the economy everything is steady as she goes.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister today when she was notified that this closure was coming for AbitibiBowater in Grand Falls, and that the 1,400 mill workers and forestry-related workers in Central Newfoundland would be out of a job.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS DUNDERDALE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is indeed a dark day in Grand Falls-Windsor and the surrounding eighteen communities that depended on that mill over the last 100 years for their livelihood.

We have been engaged with this company and with the mill union in Grand Falls-Windsor over the last number of years, Mr. Speaker, as we worked through the downturn in this industry and the impact that was being felt here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Everyone in this Province knew that we were waiting for a decision from AbitibiBowater on the future of the mill. They told us that would come before the end of December.

This morning, when we picked up The Globe and Mail, we saw that there was a prediction that the mill closure would be announced today. The Premier got a phone call at 9:30 from David Paterson, the CEO. I got a call, following that, from Mr. Pierre Rougeau. We found out this morning at 9:30 and 10:15 respectively, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, it is unbelievably that in this time of economic crisis – and I said it yesterday – that the minister sits in her office and waits for the phone to ring every morning to find out what industry is closing today, and how many jobs people are going to lose. It happened with the IOC announcement, it happened with the Wabush announcement, and today we are hearing it just happened with the Grand Falls-Windsor announcement.

Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the minister this, because in the course of the last year that she talks about that she has been on top of this file, we have not heard anything in the public about the details that government has laid on the table. We have heard them talk about the executives of the company, talk about the company themselves, but we have not heard the details of what government proposed and offered to try and allow for the continuation of this pulp and paper mill in the Province.

Why don’t you tell us that today?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS DUNDERDALE: Mr. Speaker, I respectfully suggest that the Leader of the Opposition watch or listen to the news, because our involvement in Grand Falls-Windsor has been very public.

Mr. Speaker, into that operation goes, every year, $12 million worth of energy from the Exploits River; $6 million that subsidizes the mill in its operation, and $6 million they make in profit from power purchase agreements with Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro.

On top of that, Mr. Speaker, the government has invested a further $11 million over the last three years in support to the company during this difficult financial downturn. On top of that Mr. Speaker, we have come back to the company on a number of occasions and said: Can we enter into a discussion with regard to repatriation of your chartered lands which will put significant money in your hands for reinvestment in the mill in Corner Brook? That is what we have done in the last four years.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Right now, this announcement is little comfort for the people in Grand Falls-Windsor. People are going to want to know, minister, what this government has placed on the table. This is the second pulp and paper mill that has closed under your Administration in Newfoundland and Labrador. You have had a year working with this company. You know what the result is today, so surely you would have had some kind of effective and comprehensive plan in place that you can roll out to be able to support the local economy and those people that are affected.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS DUNDERDALE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In the two-and-a-half years that I have been in this portfolio, Mr. Speaker, I have met, on a regular basis, with the union of the mill in Grand Falls-Windsor, I have met on a number of occasions with the Mayor of Grand Falls-Windsor, as well as the mayors of the surrounding communities; with representation from the Regional Economical Development Board, the Chamber of Commerce. The three MHAs for the area have been engaged on a regular basis with all of these same people. The people of Grand Falls-Windsor understand what we have been trying to achieve. They understand what is on the table. They understand what has been asked of us and how we have risen to the occasion. We have tried to mitigate any of the challenges that the company has put our way. This is beyond our control, Mr. Speaker. We wanted Abititi Bowater to have a good future in Central Newfoundland, another 100 years. The company’s mindset was not in the same place, and thus we have arrived at this place today.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is not about who creates the problems, it is about who is elected to lead and find the solutions in times of crisis, I say to you, minister.

When Stephenville mill closed, the 300 workers had the option of looking to Alberta for employment. Today, the 160 workers coming out of Wabush and the more than 400 direct employees coming out of the Grand Falls Bowater’s mill in Grand Falls do not have the option to go to Western Canada to find those lucrative jobs in Alberta.

What is the solution for your government to ensure that these families and these workers have an opportunity for retraining, for adjustment and to be able to sustain the economies of their communities along with their families?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS DUNDERDALE: Mr. Speaker, as we have worked with the people most directly affected by this news today, they have been very clear as to what their expectation is of this government. I think that they can speak more powerfully than anybody else that they are pleased with the way that they have been treated and supported and communicated with.

We have made a commitment to continue to walk that journey with them and to do everything that we can to support them and to support their communities. We have a task force in place, Mr. Speaker, it has been in place for over three months, to deal with any potential fallout of the decision making around Grand Falls-Windsor.

Mr. Speaker, I will say this much, the one thing that the union has been adamant about is that we do something to correct the wrong that was done in Star Lake negotiation under the former Administration, that we will not give away resources – that Abitibi-Bowater cannot continue to earn money without operating a mill here in Newfoundland and Labrador.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is also for the Minister of Natural Resources.

The last few months we have seen a pattern develop. Abitibi-Bowater announces a capacity review; then they close Grand Falls-Windsor. Wabush Mines announces their capital expenditure review; they lay off 160 workers, slash 40 per cent capacity and halt their $100 million maintenance upgrade. IOC announces a capital review; then they halt their $800 million expansion. Now Chevron Corporation announced yesterday – or, on Monday – that they are delaying the release of their capital spending program to the end of January.

I ask the minister: As a partner in the Hebron project, what information do you have, or has it been provided to you by the other partners, on changes in spending or in timelines with regard to the Hebron project?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS DUNDERDALE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I encourage the Opposition House Leader to review Hansard, because I answered this question the week before last. I met with the vice-president for the Americas of Exxon-Mobil last month. We had a long conversation about the Hebron project, the Hebron agreement, and the go-forward plans.

Mr. Speaker, there are no adjustments or realignments of planning that is taking place. The project is proceeding as it was designed to do. We will see the opening of the project office here in St. John’s early in the New Year, and Exxon-Mobil, who will be the operator for the Hebron project, does not foresee any challenges at this particular time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We also learned today that Vale Inco will be shutting down the Voisey’s Bay Mine next July for a one month period. We have spoken to the company and they have advised that there will be no layoffs and no impact on the Long Harbour hydromet facility.

I ask the minister: Does government know what the financial impact of this decision will be, what it will have on the Province’s coffers, and has this been factored into the much promised fiscal update that we are supposed to be getting?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS DUNDERDALE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I happened to be in Voisey’s Bay just a month ago, and I am happy to report that I met with principles of Vale Inco this morning.

Mr. Speaker, the way that the shut down in July is going to be handled, everyone who works in Voisey’s Bay is on a two-week rotation. So, two weeks of July will be used as that rotation piece and then everyone will be asked to take two weeks holidays. So there is not expected to be a financial impact, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Last week, IOC announced a one month shut down of their operations in 2009, as well as the delay in their Phase I and Phase II expansion plans. The company has stated that this would not impact their permanent employees but will have an impact on temporary employees and students.

I ask the minister: Does government know what the financial impact will be of this shut down?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Natural Resources.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS DUNDERDALE: Mr. Speaker, no, we do not know what the financial impact on part-time employees or potential employees of IOC would be at this point in time. I gave an undertaking here in the House that I would ask IOC to provide that kind of information, but they are busy, Mr. Speaker, at the present time in trying to manage their way through the current worldwide crisis that is affecting all commodity markets as outlined by the speaker in his question.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Suspicions are, and have been for some time, that government is in deep denial over the state of the economy. This has been confirmed by some of the responses to questions that we have asked in this House. It is pretty clear that government is perfectly content to sleepwalk through this economic disaster.

Mr. Speaker, Stephen Harper was quoted as saying some time ago, that he thought the fundamentals are sound, and that is the kind of stuff we hear from this government, i.e. everything is stable, steady as she goes, and so on. Well, the facts indicate otherwise. It is time for decisive action, Mr. Speaker.

I would ask the Premier: Premier, rather than simply responding when someone calls to government with an issue, would you be prepared to chair an all-party summit on the economy, bring together, Mr. Speaker –

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. KELVIN PARSONS: - the business interest of this Province, the labour interests of the Province, the community leaders in this Province, so that there can be a discussion - the more heads there are the better - and hopefully you can map out together some strategy for this impending crisis?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I chair a committee on our economy and that is the Cabinet of this government.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: That Cabinet has met four times, I think, in the last four days. We had a meeting scheduled this morning which we cancelled because of the Abitibi situation.

It seems to be lost on the hon. member opposite that General Motors and Ford and Chrysler are in trouble, three of the biggest American corporations, three of the bigger corporations in the world. They are looking for a $28 billion bailout. The American government has already put $700 billion in. I watched CNN last night. One of the accounts basically said that the money is being spent so fast and doled out so fast that nobody is keeping account of it, and they don’t know where it is going.

This government is going to ask responsibly, and we are stepping up. It just galls me to listen to the Leader of the Opposition talk about what this minister is not doing. She is working around the clock. She is meeting with everybody concerned. She is meeting with the corporations. Ask the people of Grand Falls what they think of what we have done on this particular issue with Abitibi. The union will tell you we were there for them, the community will tell you we were there for them, the members will tell you that we were there for them, everybody, and the company will tell you that we were there in discussions with them.

You stand up and imply that we are just not doing anything. Nothing is further from the truth. This is not a Liberal Government, this is a PC Government.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Premier knows that there are more industries shutdown in this Province since he has been the Premier than were ever started, and record will show that, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, to switch gears: There is an increasing concern and discussion regarding the future of waste management and waste management projects in our Province. The current strategy of waste management sites is placing a financial burden of a lot of towns in this Province, especially the towns that are using the Robin Hood Bay site.

Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister today: What is the status of the Greater Avalon Regional Waste Management Program, and are communities continuing to participate?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS WHALEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This government is committed to the Waste Management Strategy, and we are investing over $200 million into that strategy. We have just put $40 million into the facility of Robin Hood Bay, and we have a committee that is working to bring about this waste management on the Northeast Avalon.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Towns such as Holyrood, who were disposing of its own waste, were doing so and earning a royalty on it by doing so for other towns, of up to $160,000 a year in surplus in their budget; but now, because now they have to take their garbage to Robin Hood Bay, they are running a deficit and will run a deficit again this year.

I ask the minister: What is government doing to offset the increased cost to these municipalities that are now having to truck their garbage for a number of kilometres and pay high tipping fees to dispose of it?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS WHALEN: Mr. Speaker, my colleague knows that we cannot have a dump in every community in this Province. This government is committed to closing down incinerators in this Province and having the proper waste management facilities. All of the communities know full well that it is time now to modernize those types of facilities, and they are working towards that to do just that.

Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, it is not good enough for government to have a Waste Management Strategy that tells municipalities you have to now truck your garbage so many kilometres, in some cases hundreds of kilometres, you have to pay tipping fees that are doubling by the year, like we are seeing in Robin Hood Bay, and provide no supports and leave them on their own to do it.

I ask you, Minister: Is your department or the MMSB going to provide any assistance (inaudible)?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS WHALEN: Mr. Speaker, for my hon. colleague there, I have just repeated that this government has been committed to waste management in this Province. It is time now that we come ahead in the modern – it is a type of strategy that has had to take a $200 million investment to bring this Waste Management Strategy to modernize facilities across the Province, and there are committees of members from various municipalities serving on the boards to do just that.

Mr. Speaker, I have to say to the hon. member that this government – her prior government brought in this strategy - we are the ones implementing it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

May I remind the minister she is the government. You have been the government for five years. You make the decisions in this Province, Mr. Speaker. You make the laws in this Province - not over here! Not over here - and this was a law they made!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, while the government is forcing towns to truck their garbage hundreds of kilometres, pay high tipping fees, and giving them no subsidies, they are also allowing the MMSB to sit on $11 million in their bank account.

Minister, why not use that money to implement recycling programs in these towns so they will have less garbage to truck and less garbage to dump?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Acting Minister of Environment and Conservation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would advise the Leader of the Opposition to just keep an eye on what is going to be happening with the Waste Management Strategy in this Province.

I can guarantee you, Mr. Speaker, that at the end of the day this government will bring waste management a darn lot further than they ever brought it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. JACKMAN: And, Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that at the end of this strategy there will not be 250 dumps left in this Province. I just ask her to stay tuned and see what the result will be. We will have a Waste Management Strategy in this Province that will be comparable to anything else in this country, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair is having great difficulty in hearing questions asked and answers given. It causes concern, not only to the person asking the question but to the minister trying to answer the question.

I ask members for their co-operation.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I suggest that the minister needs to get a move on if he is going to get all these things done that he speaks of today.

Mr. Speaker, what we have seen from the MMSB is glossy advertising and educational campaigns that tell how to recycle, what to recycle, what we can recycle, but it does not provide for the programs in the Province.

I ask you, Minister: When are you going to step up, and start using that money to provide for appropriate recycling programs in Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Acting Minister of Environment and Conservation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. JACKMAN: Maybe, Mr. Speaker, it is time that we give them a glossy education about what waste management is all about.

If she wants to talk about programs, go and speak to the schools. For every recycled dollar that the schools bring and circulate, they receive an equal dollar. It is no good to tell me that the education campaign has not worked. If I say to people: Get to Half, what does it mean? - Practically everybody in the Province knows exactly what that means.

Mr. Speaker, the MMSB does not provide operational costs. That has been asked about in the media. That is going to be sustained by the community. What we are talking about here, the MMSB, the Waste Management Strategy, will invest in the infrastructure. That is what the $200 million is about.

I would ask anybody to take a look at Robin Hood Bay, where it is today compared to where it was two or three years ago. Speak to the people and see the advancements that have been made out there; and in another couple of years, Mr. Speaker, there will be something out there that will not look like anything as it was in the past. It will be an engineered landfill site, not a dump, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MS JONES: Mr. Speaker, I say to the minister, the people in Holyrood are looking at Robin Hood Bay. Last year they looked at it for $23 a load when they dumped; this year they are looking at it at $50 a load when they dump, I say to you, Minister.


I am glad to hear the programs in the schools are working because it was an initiative of the Liberal government that started the program in the schools on the recycling, Mr. Speaker.

Let me ask the minister this. He is the government. Just because the MMSB does not have a mandate today, he claims, to provide for recycling programs in the Province, there is no reason why they cannot have that mandate.

I ask you, Minister: Will you bring forward a change to see the $11 million that is sitting in a bank account in this Province put to good use to clean up our environment and put good recycling programs in place?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Acting Minister of Environment and Conservation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot tell you exactly what all of the money of the MMSB is being used for, and I do not know what the mandate will be in the future. That remains to be seen.

I can tell you one thing: the money is not sitting idly. Go to Central Newfoundland and ask the Central Waste Management Strategy what they have done.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. JACKMAN: There was $500,000 allocated to them just a short while ago. Fourteen of the dump sites that have been closed out and recapped, so on and so forth, the money from the MMSB has gone to that. It goes to education. It goes to recycling, the school program – I regret that I mentioned that now, Mr. Speaker -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. JACKMAN: - seeing that it was an initiative of theirs. But I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, at the end of the day this government will go on record as being much more progressive than the people opposite.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

The hon. the Member for the District of Signal Hill–Quidi Vidi.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, as has already been pointed out in our Question Period today, today we had more announcements, one in particular with regard to Grand Falls-Windsor, that are very serious and that will affect the workers in our Province and potentially, the Province’s own fiscal situation. Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province deserve answers from this government on what it is going to do to protect them in this time of economic downturn.

So I ask the Premier: What economic stimulus programs does your government have, and what are you developing to deal with the loss of jobs in the natural resource sector in this Province and the potential of workers returning to this Province without jobs because of the slowdown in natural resource activities elsewhere in Canada?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, there are significant projects that are still going ahead. There is the Hebron project, of course, which is on stream; there is the hydromet project, of course, which is still on stream; the Lower Churchill is moving forward very favourably.

As a matter of fact, on the Lower Churchill, what we will be doing is attempting to draw into some of the green infrastructure money, the rapid, accelerated infrastructure money that is going to come from the federal government.

I have a meeting of the Atlantic premiers now on Sunday and Monday in Summerside, Prince Edward Island, so we will be looking at that.

As well, it should not be lost on hon. members as well, that we have a very generous wage package out right now to public sector workers. We are offering a compounded amount of 21.5 per cent to our public service employees, and I am really at a loss to understand why they are looking this gift horse in the mouth and not taking it because we have indicated that we can hold this until we get to the Christmas period, but going into next year, we are not certain as a government whether we will be able to maintain the obligation of a 21.5 per cent raise hike. So we are doing everything we can and.

In addition, I have also asked for an update on our infrastructure program. Infrastructure projects that we have on the hopper right now are calculated at approximately –

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

I ask the hon. Premier to conclude his answer.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

- calculated at approximately $3.5 billion to $4 billion. So we are taking any of our surplus money, we are putting it into our workers and we are putting it into capital infrastructure and creating jobs.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for the District of Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I do appreciate the large projects that are on the books, these long-term projects. I cannot deny these. I know that they are there, I know they are being worked on, but there are many people who right now in the present are not going to benefit from what is happening, especially because of the shutdowns that we are talking about and many people are going to be suffering because of the economic crisis that we are in.

So I ask the Premier: What concrete steps is your government taking and what can we expect to see in the economic report that we are going to get to mitigate the negative effects of the current economic crisis as it unfolds in our Province, not what is going to happen in ten years time but what you are going to do now?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WILLIAMS: The effects of the economic crisis are really starting to trickle down to us now, as we have seen really with regard to commodities; with iron ore and steel, with nickel, with oil and gas, in the pulp and paper industry. That is obviously having an effect, and the most direct effects right now have been to the workers, of course at Wabush, and as well, now our workers in Grand Falls through Abitibi.

So we do have a task force set up, which the minister just talked about before. It is three months in the works right now, which is up and running, and is ready to hit the ground running again tomorrow. That will be going into Central Newfoundland, working with the community, working with the union, working with people in the communities to decide on what they think are the best things for that particular area.

As well, we will continue to spend. We do not intend to pull back on our spending. We are just trying, as we look out two, three or four years, we have to look at where our deficits are going but we are going to continue to infuse spending into the economy to make sure that the people get the benefit.

We are, as I have said before, in a very good, financial position. Now, that position unilaterally drops as every province gets hit harder and harder by the world economy.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the hon. Premier to conclude his answer.

PREMIER WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

But we will be at the top of that heap, or very close to the top of that heap. So as a result of our surplus this year, which the minister will be discussing in the very near future regarding the economic update, we can give an assurance to the people of this Province that we will be spending that money in their best interests.

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